(no subject)

[geminigirl]

I think the thing that scares me most about entering an interfaith marriage is Christmas.

Christmas. It's seems to be a nice day, doesn't it. Unless you're Jewish.

I'm a little sad at letting go of my own Christmas traditions. Even Jewish girls have them...sleep late, indulgent shower, Chinese food and movies. It may not seem like much, but when it's what you do every Christmas, it's important. If your family tradition was pancakes every Christmas, you might miss it too, even if it seems like not a big deal.

And I'm terribly afraid of feeling like a fifth wheel. Because Christmas isn't my holiday, and never will be, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to love and embrace Christmas as a family celebration, and let go of the religious underpinnings it has. Christmas to me, no matter who I've celebrated it with, (and I have joined friends for the holiday before) has always had religious trappings-even in the most non-religious of households. It feels like something that I don't belong at, or as a part of. I've always enjoyed the time with friends, but Christmas makes me feel awkward.

I really do want to be able to enjoy the things that Christmas is supposed to be, but I don't know if I know how to let go of the things that Christmas means to me.

Comments

[dindin.livejournal.com]

It's funny, I had a gf a few years ago who married a non-Jew. She said it never bothered her until he wanted to put a Christmas tree in the house...

[geminigirl]

I'm kind of anti-Christmas tree. In no small part because our holiday plans will likely include travelling to Canada, and so, what's the point?

[melaniesuzanne.livejournal.com]

But I thought you enjoyed decorating the tree. :)

This will be the first year I haven't travelled home for Christmas, and yet I've always had a (fake) tree. It's just one of those traditions.

[geminigirl]

Your tree...sure. I had a blast decorating your tree. And I love other people's Christmas trees. I'm just not sure I'd feel okay about one in my own house.

Then again, when the time comes, perhaps I'll feel differently about it. Or perhaps I'll feel okay with a tree but no outside lights or something. It's all hypothetical at this point.

But I do love Christmas trees.

[melaniesuzanne.livejournal.com]

Will you have a Menorah as well? Would having your faith be celebrated equally take some of the edge off the Christmasness?

[geminigirl]

Absolutely yes on the menorah in our house. Right now it's just the little one that I got when I was in college-I'm sure eventually, I'll get a bigger, more family-sized one.

I can't precisely explain what it is about the Christmas tree thing that makes me not sure how I feel about one in my own house, beyond "But I'm Jewish and it doesn't belong." Except, that's not entirely fair to Cayne...

[moshah.livejournal.com]

Is Cayne Christian?

If so, I'm curious: what would you do if Cayne said that he didn't want a Menorah in the house?

[geminigirl]

Technically Catholic, although I think "technically" is about as much as you can get. He can probably explain any faith-related beliefs he holds better than I can.

There are a few things that are make or break for me...having children and raising them Jewish, celebrating my own faith traditions (though not necessarily at the exclusion of his) things like that. If he'd said no to it, I wouldn't have said yes to marrying him.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for geminigirl, but part of the complication of a tree in the house (aside from shed needles) is that a Jewish woman's children are Jewish... having a tree in the house is a little confusing in teaching identity to the children...

But also since the tree is the biggest symbol of Christmas and Christmas is such a huge thing in this country it ends up with "yes, your friends all have trees, and there's one in the mall, and you're singing carols at school, and everyone's getting these huge christmas presents, but no, it stays outside" And if you've grown up with "Christmas is pervasive outside the house, but inside it is not" it's a big step to change that. Which, I guess, gets me back to how to raise Jewish kids.

Sorry... this is something I spent a lot of time thinking about. I can't really have these conversations right now with the gentleman in question anymore, but,..

[moshah.livejournal.com]

I'm Hindu - and was raised such - so I'm familiar with the thoughts surrounding celebrating a "Christian" holiday in an non-christian household. But like it or not, Xmas is part of American secular culture, and because it is so I celebrate it (and still celebrate) the secular aspects of it. I love the season - the giving, the trappings, etc etc - but I celebrate it at face value, rather than the religious connotation. If I thought about it I guess its probably not appropriate to do so, but if I get off from work for it, and we have xmas parties and have secret santas and all that, its hard not to give at least a passing nod to the traditions. And since Xmas is essentially coopted pagan tradition, its somewhat fitting that Xmas is in essence being coopting in turn.

But going back to the original point - it all depends on what GG and ZC have agreed upon. If the agreement is that GG will practice Judaism exclusively in the household and will raise the kids such, than okay. Its the "not *necessarily* to the exclusion" phrase that's going to cause trouble - sounds as if the possibility exists that it *might* be to the exclusion of ZC's beliefs. If ZC has an expectation that he'll celebrate his catholic traditions, or raise the kids in both religions, then thats trouble. This is definitely one area where more the said is better.

When I was younger, I didnt give much thought to the whole idea of culture and what it takes to continue traditions. As I get older, I realize how important it is to me, and I've made dating and other decisions accordingly. I fully expect to have a Christmas tree and drink egg nog and sing about Rudolph the Red Nosed reindeer and watch The Grinch and The Christmas Story and give gifts - and also raise my kids as Hindu. I dont feel that its a dichotomy at all.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

A lot of it has to do with how religious the Christian family is.

badmagic's family would do tree and lots of food and that was pretty much it. His aunt has candles on her tree.

His aunt also serves ham every Christmas eve, which was a little difficult for me, but...

One problem I was wrestling with was how one raises kids with a Jewish identity and yet Daddy has a Christmas Tree in the house and there will be ham at the Christian celebrations. If one isn't considering keeping kosher at home then that sort of thing doesn't matter, either.

[geminigirl]

See for me, Christmas has religious meaning no matter how religious or not the family is...which is why I found the discussion I had with someone who is an atheist about Christmas and children incredibly comforting. Even if the celebration is totally secular, the holiday itself has religious roots, and for some reason, that makes me squirm. And no, it doesn't make sense that Christmas feels that way and Valentine's Day doesn't, but then, since when are emotions logical?

[jpallan.livejournal.com]

I actually don't celebrate Valentine's Day or St. Patrick's Day for that reason.

Roots of holidays

[margoeve.livejournal.com]

Valentines day is a Christian excuse to celebrate Luprachallia (sp?) - A pagan holiday where preist would wun through the streets flogging women who intercepted their path - beliving that this would promote fertility.

Same thing with Christmas - It's Yule, the rebirth of the Sun God which happens to be around the Winter Solstice (surprize surprize). Jesus was born in the spring, but in a brilliant move of marketing, the Christians moved up his birthday to coincide with that of the pagan sun god.

I'd highly recomend reading "The Power of Myth" if you haven't already. Maybe it will help your disonance reconcile.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I've never spent time around actually religious Christmas. Even though I've sung one heck of a lot of Christmas carols.

[yix.livejournal.com]

I've found every christmas celebration spent with someone else's family to be awkward, even though I do come from a family that celebrates it. As for tradition, does your new family celebrate Christmas on Christmas day or do they do it on Christmas eve? I was pleasantly surprised to find that my sweetie's parents celebrate on the Eve, so I still get to do my Chinese food and a movie plan[1]. (Though really, I have tended to do Thai food when out here...I have not found a great Chinese place yet.) Even if they do it on Christmas day, maybe they would be interested in adding your traditional thing to their day? I mean, even when I did Christmas on the day, everything was over by noon at the latest.


[1] Ever since I moved far away, Christmas has not been the holiday that I travel home for. Thanksgiving naturally comes with more days off so it's easier to travel home for that holiday.

[geminigirl]

I have no idea when their Christmas celebration traditionally is. I think for this year, I'm just going to go into things with an open mind and see how they work out. If I feel supersquirmy about it after the fact, then we'll see what works out next. If I can separate the religious feelings I've got about Christmas from the family tradition kinds of things, then we're in one boat...if I can't then we're in another.

[jpallan.livejournal.com]

As a pagan and an ex-Catholic, my Christmas traditions involve hanging around the house all day in pajamas, watching a bunch of rental movies, and having Chinese food.

Recently started participating in a Unitarian congregation, where I may choose to join them for Christmas celebrations, but I fundamentally don't celebrate Christmas.

Which works out okay for me, since my younger daughter was born on Boxing Day.

As a Jew who LOVES Christmas

[margoeve.livejournal.com]

Understand, my 1st defiant action upon moving out of my parents home was to buy a christmas tree. It's a pagan symbol, that's fun to decorate and pretty to look at.

Since Elkor's family is non-religious, I was able to easily incorperate their Christmas into my life. (His parents do very well by us too.) It's just a Christian bastardization of Pagan Yule.

And we can still go to a movie that night, after eating another attempt by Elkor's mom at making Yorkshire Pudding. I know one of these years, she's going to be too tired, or we won't be able to get to them, or something - and then it's CHINESE FOR EVERYONE!

[tisiphone.livejournal.com]

I think everyone faces that, even homofaithful couples :>. Fact is, no one's family traditions and holidays are exactly like your own, even if you share a superficial set of customs or beliefs. My boyfriend and I are both from nominally xtian families, and yet his opened presents on christmas eve and we open them at ungodly hours in the morning. This is complicated by my daughter, whose father is Jewish - we have latkes during Hanukah, for her. That's a new thing.
Make your own traditions with your husband - that way, neither of you will feel out of place.

[tisiphone.livejournal.com]

I think everyone faces that, even homofaithful couples :>. Fact is, no one's family traditions and holidays are exactly like your own, even if you share a superficial set of customs or beliefs. My boyfriend and I are both from nominally xtian families, and yet his opened presents on christmas eve and we open them at ungodly hours in the morning. This is complicated by my daughter, whose father is Jewish - we have latkes during Hanukah, for her. That's a new thing.
Make your own traditions with your husband - that way, neither of you will feel out of place.

[reedrover]

Christmas in my household was religious on the Eve, and games and waffles and movies and going out to eat on the actual day. (I once took my parents to see Aladdin on Christmas day.)

Your two statements I'm a little sad at letting go of my own Christmas traditions. Even Jewish girls have them and Because Christmas isn't my holiday are contradictory, and I think you should start with the first one and rebel from there. (grin) "Even Jewish girls" have a right to pick how holidays are spent. No one should judge your use of December 25. You've made it your holiday too -- you just happen to use it more for personal renewal than spiritual/family celebrations.

You should talk to your significant other about making Christmas day a you-two tradition that includes indulging yourselves and each other -- you know, that whole "spirit of giving" has very little that is unique to Christians/ReligiousChristmas (tm).

[mittelbar.livejournal.com]

What she said. You should get to pick, too. Alternate, at least. Odd years are Christian, even years are Jewish. :->

If I'd had to celebrate every holiday only in the way my sweeties' families celebrated, it would drive me nuts. I always feel a little fifth-wheely at Christmas/Easter/whatever because I don't get into the spirit of them the way many people do.

[malte.livejournal.com]

Hang on a minute... Does Cayne celebrate Christmas? Does his family? Is anyone really going to expect you to do anything different from normal, and even if so, why should that make you change? I really don't see why you can't do more or less what you like...

[dragontdc.livejournal.com]

If it were just the trappings of Christmas you wanted to keep, I'd say go for it, because very little about Christmas is really Christian. Most of it is Pagan in origin, and centered around the Winter Solstice. The Christians thought that the return of the sun was a great time for the birthday of the Son. (The whole Son/Sun thing was important in the competition of the early Church with the Mithraists for position as the Roman State Religion).
The Tree? Norse; The Yule Log? Norse; Holly and Mistletoe? Celtic; Santa Claus? The Norse and the Celts both have precedents; Lights? Pre-Celtic European; Wassail? Celtic... the list goes on.

The only Christian things about Christmas are the creche' (Manger Scene) and the star and angels. Although the Star and angels were prominent in Zoroastrian worship.

Since you're not Pagan, and have already been practicing these customs, I'd say it's fair to say your overall relationship to the symbols of the holiday has been secular. If it were just that, I'd say there's no reason to stop celebrating Christmas.

But since you say you have sincere Christian religious feelings about the holiday, it becomes more of a clash of faiths. Good luck on the mixed marriage. I'm sure you've heard every warning there is.

[geminigirl]

Um, what customs have I been practicing? My only relationship to any of the symbols of the season are the occational tree decorating at a Christian friends house.

[dragontdc.livejournal.com]

I must have mis-read your post. When you talked about Christmas always having had religious underpinnings for you, I thought you meant they were your own feelings. It struck me a bit odd, seeing as how you said you were Jewish, but I've met enough "Jews for Jesus" types that I wasn't going to question that. Now I see that the "religious underpinnings" were youre friends', not yours. Sorry.

Decorating a tree is a Pagan thing (the evergreen is a symbol of eternal life, of course, and originally candles were put around it (later in it, fire hazard as that was) as part of the festival of lights that goes back to neolithic times when bonfires were lit to lure back the sun) but it has been thoroughly secularized. I'd say keep on decorating that tree. The Christians just borrowed it, anyway.

[wait.livejournal.com]

I hear ya. We do x-mas at J's parents' house, but there is NOTHING in our house beyond the seasonal cards that we get from friends. (Some of our friends are very good, others still make no effort to acknowledge that we do not celebrate x-mas.)

J's parents' are not the cooking type. Nor are they much for keeping Christ in x-mas. So I'm working hard to bring in the Chinese food tradition of modern Jews.

[slinkr.livejournal.com]

Christmas is one of the most hellish parts of intermarriage. Kelly and I still haven't quite resolved the issue of whether or not I'll be allowed to tell our future offspring that Santa Claus is imaginary.

[entirelysonja.livejournal.com]

Hmm.

Is this mainly a problem because Christianity is the dominant religion in this country?

What I mean is, would it bother you in the same way if your partner were from, say, a Hindu background and wanted to celebrate its holidays and traditions in your home?

I guess I'm wondering if part of the issue here is that NOT celebrating Christmas is an important part of your experience as a Jew in this country.

Because Christmas isn't my holiday, and never will be, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to love and embrace Christmas as a family celebration, and let go of the religious underpinnings it has.

For what it's worth, I don't think you have to. As an atheist who celebrates Christmas because it's part of my cultural heritage, I intend to teach my children about the religious meaning of Christmas, while at the same time making it clear that these aren't the beliefs of our family.

[ladyortyger.livejournal.com]

I got here via dindin.. thank you for writing this, I truly have appreciated the comments and stuff.. I am Jewish as well and strongly want to raise my children Jewish and I may be faced with a similar situation to yours in the future. Is it okay if I add you to my friendlist?

[geminigirl]

You're certainly welcome to read my journal. I tend to write frequently, sometimes topics of substance, sometimes not.