(no subject)

[geminigirl]

As I was cutting up some chicken to go in a stir fry for Cayne's lunch, I had Oprah on the TV. She's interviewing author Terry McMillian (of the semi-autobiographical How Stella Got her Groove Back and Waiting to Exhale and others) and her ex-husband, Johnathan Plummer, who revealed to Terry that he was gay.

During the early part of the program, Oprah was discussing with Terry McMillan how Johnathan revealed his sexual orientation to Oprah, and how, at the time he revealed to her that he is gay he also said that he'd never been intimate with a man. Terry McMillian responded with, "That's like saying you're an alcoholic without ever having had a drink."

It's a frequent refrain, "How can you know you're lesbian/gay/bisexual if you've never had sex with a MOTAS¹?

So, how did you know about your own sexuality...gay, lesbian, bisexual, straight, whatever label you choose to apply? Before or after you started having sex? Did you ever question it? How do you feel about what Terry McMillian said to Johnathan-do you think people can know before they try it?

(Anon posting on, IP logging off, so go ahead an answer anonymously if you like-also, feel free to link to this post and encourage other people to answer, and mactavish I can re-post it Friday to bisexual as a QOTW if you like.)

1. Member Of The Appropriate Sex

Comments

[alibee.livejournal.com]

Oh cripes, I think that's total BS. I was boy crazy all through middle and high school and I never even KISSED one until I was 18. I also didn't go on a date until I was a sophomore (yay parental rules).

I think people who say that stuff just don't know what the hell they're talking about. Who would *choose* to be gay? It's a pain in the ass! It's not like you meet a lot of heterophobics, eh? Additionally, I don't think you need to sleep with someone to know you're attracted to them!

Argh. People are so ignorant.

[alibee.livejournal.com]

You know, it occurs to me that when I'm irritated, I type like I'm 12.

In addition to my comment about people choosing to be gay (and really, I have a hard time believing anyone living anywhere other than a very liberal area would even consider this to be true), I think it's somewhat of a backhanded slap for her to say that about her husband. What, does she think that the real issue is that he was tired of her and wanted an easy way out? Why would he pick "gay" as his reason to not want to be with her as a married couple? Or is she trying to argue with him to convince him that he's wrong?

[dusty-dubplate.livejournal.com]

I must say though, I've actually seen a guy use his boyfriend as a weapon against controlling parents. Whenever he gets drunk he goes after women.. but I'm not sure what that means.

[lexinatrix.livejournal.com]

To address McMillan's comment: people understand what attracts them without acting on them. At the same time, I know I had to try a few things before I could understand what gender (and even what traits within a gender) attracts me and whether I'll be satisfied with acting on that attraction.

I can see where McMillan's rage comes from. From what I know of her history with her husband, she was pursued by him... courted. She was deeply touched by his attraction to her, and felt renewed by it (which is why she said she wrote the book).

To discover that all of that was fundamentally a lie had to be heartbreaking and infuriating. Heartbreaking for losing a great love, and infuriating because this is embarrassing to admit publically and I'm sure she feels like she was conned.

Yes, he cannot change his being gay (assuming it's not a stunt - his honesty truly is suspect here), but he could have changed any one of the many decisions he made and deceptions he perpetrated. He cannot be absolved of his role in this whole mess by claiming confusion or prejudice. He's an adult and if he truly respected and cared for McMillan, he would have been honest.

As an aside: I had heard that his marriage to her was a way for him to achieve a level of fame and wealth. This rumor could be purely an apologist response to his coming out.

[dusty-dubplate.livejournal.com]

Is this really something people need to sit down and think about?

[geminigirl]

I think for some, it is. For others, it's a known entity. I know for me, it took some time to figure things out.

[tisiphone.livejournal.com]

First of all, I was really surprised by the depth of Mcmillan's anger over her husband coming out. I know there are probably issues that didn't come out on Oprah (at least, I hope there were) but her rage seemed really out of proportion to something that he, essentially, couldn't fix.

I am of the firm opinion that sexual orientation is about attraction, not action. It's a fundamental aspect of brain chemistry. I certainly knew I was bi before I started having sex - I had crushes on both boys and girls, therefore, to my logical little mind, I was obviously bisexual. It did take me a while longer to start experimenting with girls than with boys, but I never questioned that I would eventually.

[alibee.livejournal.com]

I think it sort of makes sense that she would be angry (although I am far from saying that it's right) -- after all, the man that she chose to spend the rest of her life with essentially lied to her, saying that he wanted the same thing, and thus rejected her. It's hard to have something like that happen to you and not be crushed, I'd assume.

[entirelysonja.livejournal.com]

I knew I was bisexual as soon as I first heard of bisexuality. It was one of those, "Aha!" moments. :-)

Before that, although I knew I was attracted to girls, I thought I was heterosexual since I was also attracted to boys. I didn't really think about it in detail, though -- I'm sure I would have recognized how stupid that was if I'd given it much thought.

Oh, and I had this revelation around the same time I first had sex with a man; I hadn't yet had sex with a woman at the time. I don't really know whether I realized I was bisexual before or after I had sex for the first time.

[(Anonymous)]

OK, commenting anonymously here because I've never told anyone that I'm gay, and don't plan to tell anyone anytime in the near future (there are a lot of people I know, my family included, who would be...ah...rather put out by such an announcement), but, well, I'm gay. And have known it since I was about 20 (I'm now in my 30s). (And I probably would have figured it out a lot sooner were I brought up in more, um, tolerant surroundings.) And I've never yet had sex, with either gender.

Knowing you're gay has nothing to do with whether or not you've had sex. It's quite possible to realize which gender you're physically attracted to without acting on that attraction.

Sheesh.

[(Anonymous)]

(BTW, lest someone for some reason try to figure out who I am, I'm not someone who's ever posted in this LJ before. I got to this entry from a link in someone else's journal.)

[baratron.livejournal.com]

The flip side of that has to be "How can you know you're straight if you haven't had sex with a MOTAS?". Which is either equally as true or equally as bollocks, depending on your perspective.

I can't be bothered to tell the story again, but I found out I was bisexual at the age of 12 by reading a short story entitled "Hetero, Homo, Bi or Nothing" by the children's author Bernard Ashley. I read it, and went "Ah, that's what I am". Apparently I was lucky, because most of the bi folk I know had all sorts of crises trying to "decide" if they were straight or gay, and I never had that because I'd been given bi as an option right from the start.

I did not kiss anyone until the age of 16, or have sex (by any definition) until the age of 18. I did not have sex with a woman until I was 22. But I always knew I was attracted to women.

[tactisle.livejournal.com]

Okay, I understand that she's angry, feels betrayed and so on, but seriously! Equating homosexuality with -addiction-, on national TV?

I wonder how McMillan feels about the corollary hypothesis, that none of these high-school kids taking their abstinence-til-marriage pledges nowadays will know they're -really- heterosexual until it's too late...

But anyway, to answer your question, I've known I was attracted to both sexes since I was like 8; my first wet dreams featured hermaphrodites, even. Oh, and I should mention, I first had sex 13 years after that realization.

I'm a sexual enough creature that I really need to have a mutual attraction with my life partner for it to work. Fortunately for me, we'll never know if I'd have had the guts to say "no!" to marrying someone I wasn't attracted to, and thus avoid hurting them when I couldn't take it anymore.

[sweet-tea79.livejournal.com]

So, how did you know about your own sexuality...gay, lesbian, bisexual, straight, whatever label you choose to apply? Before or after you started having sex? Did you ever question it? How do you feel about what Terry McMillian said to Johnathan-do you think people can know before they try it?

I was unsure about commenting here at first, but geminigirl was nice enough to encourage me. My experiences have been rather...vanilla. I grew up knowing I was straight and I've never felt any need to question my sexuality, and I've pretty much taken my sexuality for granted. I've never questioned if I was straight or not, even if my family questioned my heterosexuality. My extended family members, who are used to girls being debutantes, equated my tomboyishness and athleticism with lesbianism. They would ask if I had a girlfriend, and my response was typically "Do you realize where I live? Do you know how much better my dating life would be if I was attracted to girls?" Now my family is having problems reconciling the fact that I've been dating the same guy for almost 3 years and we have no plans on getting engaged, much less married. Le sigh. Obviously, my life could be much harder than it is.

I don't think you have to have sex to know what you're attracted to and what your sexuality is. I've never had sex with a woman. I've never even made out with a woman. However, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't feel the same way about being with a woman as I would about being with a man. However, if I was Terry McMillian, I would be extremely pissed. I would feel betrayed, used, and lied to. I don't think that he can choose to his sexuality, but he can choose to not lie about it and to not put himself in a situation where he would have to tell his wife that he prefers men.

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

I would feel betrayed, used, and lied to. I don't think that he can choose to his sexuality, but he can choose to not lie about it and to not put himself in a situation where he would have to tell his wife that he prefers men.

I agree, if he knew before he married her. It's possible that he's bi and not dealing with that (the whole bi-invisibility thing). It's possible that he didn't accept it internally - I didn't come out to myself until I was 36. I was the good Christian straight girl - I wasn't one of those weirdos.

It's amazing that these days the only part of that phrase that still applies is "good" ;-)

[(Anonymous)]

I don't ascribe to the binary or trinary or whatever of sexuality. I think I'm attracted to people. I've only been in relationships with men. I would be open to a relationship with a woman, but don't think that other people in my life (friends, somewhat; family in particular) would be accepting of that at all. At this point, I haven't met a woman I'd like to date, so the issue hasn't come into play. I'm rather newly single now, though, so I'm slowly adjusting myself to the idea that it will come up sooner or later, and be an ugly scene when it does.

I guess I didn't answer your question. I've known I'm bisexual since far before I began having sex. I just haven't been in a same-sex relationship yet.

[(Anonymous)]

When I was in college, I somehow found out about bisexuality thanks to the internet (what would we do without the internet?). I just knew it fit. I've always been atttracted to men and women, but until I was in college I didn't even KNOW there was a label for it.

As far as Terry and the ex go, it all depends. If he went into the marriage with a lie, he's a jerk. If he worked it out later, I think it's different. You can't help who you are, but if you know who you are and still carry that lie that far, there's no excuse for that. Even if you can't say "hey i'm gay, we can't get married, WAVE OFF SOMEHOW.

[alibee.livejournal.com]

G-d, it bugs me that you had to be in college to find out that people in the world were bisexual.

I feel very fortunate that I grew up in the Bay Area, even if I'm a vanilla monogamous straight chick.

[slinkr.livejournal.com]

Imagination, that's how.

I think that when people ask how you can know if you're queer before having a same-sex sexual experience, what they really mean is "how can you take on all of the risks and complications of having a non-hetero identity when you haven't actually done all the things that people are going to hold against you?"

[fj.livejournal.com]

I kept gravitating towards Honcho instead of Playboy. Now there's a hint about what I liked.

[xlerb.livejournal.com]

Like slinkr said: imagination.

Like some other people said: attraction, burning carnal desires, that kind of thing.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I'm straight. I've never doubted it. There was a moment when I finally understood (at a gut level) how one might be a homosexual male (I'd never had problems with lesbianism. I like girls, so I can see how someone else might. I don't get any real thrill from men so I don't really see how anyone else does; not even straight women. I'm glad they do, but it still baffles me a little).

That understanding came watching the IMAX film, Chronos, when The David was displayed, larger than life.

Back to the topic.

I've always known I was straight, back before I had any real idea what to do with girls I knew they made me feel good (and I was having sexual fantasies as early as 7, vague and incoherent, but sexual).

So I don't have any problem with someone whose not had sex with someone of the same gender saying they are homosexual, any more than I do a virgin telling me they are heterosexual.

Same goes for bi, though perhaps some of that is mere confusion, and experience will clarify (I know a few people who thought they were bi until they tried it; male and female a couple were gay, a couple were straight).

TK

TK

[elfbabe.livejournal.com]

Well, I started having crushes on guys during preschool. Around puberty or so, I began to have thoughts about kissing girls keep popping into my head, and I remember thinking, "Uhoh. Am I a lesbian? That'll make things kinda difficult..." But then I realized that guys were much more appealing to me, and I thought/fantasized about them a lot more. I'd pretty much determined that my sexual orientation was "wiggly" (ie, not exactly straight, but too close to it to feel comfortable calling myself "bisexual") before I'd even kissed anyone, male or female.

As for Terry McMillian's comment? Incredibly dumb. Orientation is about attraction, not necessarily action.

My boyfriend's sitting next to me at the moment, and he says that he started having crushes on girls long before he was actually interested in doing sexual things with them, even when he was still at the age when he thought they were "icky". And when he got older and started enjoying (heh) porn, it was the women he wanted to look at. (He adds, "The more women the better!") Though he was 19 when he first got the chance to actually... ah... field-test his interests, his straight-ness has always been pretty obvious.

[yesthattom.livejournal.com]

Hello?

Are we still getting together on Sunday?

I've been sending you emails and not hearing back. I could really use your cell # so we can coordinate Sunday. Are you ok? If we have to cancel that's cool, just don't keep me in suspense.

Tom

Sexuality

[acegreco.livejournal.com]

I personally knew I was bi before having any sexual encounters. It was in that tumultuous time, well not the average one, more of around 19. I was a late bloomer and had a really good friend (almost girlfriend) who I often had odd theological and sexual discussions with. One of these was about being gay or bisexual. After discussing at some length and identifying my innate femininity, I decided that I had the potential to be bisexual. Granted, I didn't say then and there: "I'm BI!", but I knew it was a possibility. The first time I realized I -was- was when I met a cute guy on the net who got me so sexually aroused I knew there had to be a significant reason. There was some activities to follow, but I was sure as of that moment that I was bi.

[waterspyder.livejournal.com]

Well, how do people know they're straight without ever having kissed a member of the appropriate sex. (BTW I like that term, kick sexual dichotomy in the teeth!)

I think it comes down to attraction. Growing up, I knew I had to play along, I didn't find boys cute, I found women cute, but when I realized none of my female classmates ever expressed that sentiment, that I was abnormal. Girls gave me butterflies in my tummy. Boys were icky. Girls smelled pretty. Boys could stay on the other end of that ten foot pole. I don't think at age 12 that anyone in my class had kissed anyone, but they knew they were straight and I knew I wasn't. This was confirmed in later years.

[therealocelot.livejournal.com]

Short version - I had my first crush on a female at 10. I didn't really understand what was going on and get past my hangups enough to identify as bi until 15 or so. I didn't have sexual activity with anyone, male or female, until 18. I still haven't had sexual activity with a female, and don't know if I ever will, but don't know that I won't, either. I still have hangups, and don't know if I could get past them enough to be comfortable in a relationship with a female. That doesn't change the fact that I experience attraction to females, and have since I was a kid.